ATG Release 1.54.624.3

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dthempel
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ATG Release 1.54.624.3

Post by dthempel » Thu May 30, 2019 5:29 pm

New software is available for your weekend rides with your Karoo. Happy riding!

What's new in release 1.54.624.3

Introductions and Enhancements:

If internet connectivity is not available, elevation calibration is performed using GPS data (previously, elevation calibration was only possible when internet connectivity was available)

Bug Fixes:

An intermittent issue causing data fields to appear blank has been resolved
Improvements have been made for re-routing if a rider is on a dirt/gravel road while riding a road route
Performance improvements reduce the time that Karoo takes to prepare turn-by-turn directions for long routes
Waypoint markers, as seen when viewing routes on Karoo, are again centered on the route line rather than being offset from the line
Karoo no longer displays a “No Notifications" message when dismissing the Quick Menu

Dashboard Updates:

It is now possible to force a road route down a dirt/gravel road by explicitly clicking on a dirt/gravel road
Background clean-up operations were improved, preventing an issue that could cause the Dashboard to become unavailable due to resource limitations

gregm
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Re: ATG Release 1.54.624.3

Post by gregm » Thu May 30, 2019 7:23 pm

Have there been, what -- three or so ATG releases since the last full official release?

Nice to hear about all of these things in the pipeline, of course, but it would be awesome for some of them to make it out to the whole user base at some point!

-Greg

JohnJ80
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Re: ATG Release 1.54.624.3

Post by JohnJ80 » Fri May 31, 2019 3:08 am

I’d have to defend HH on that point. Getting it right is important and they seem to be trying to do that. The downside with the ATG is that the process is visible.

dthempel
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Re: ATG Release 1.54.624.3

Post by dthempel » Fri May 31, 2019 3:39 pm

I'll agree with John here. You didn't really want the previous releases, so it was a good call on HH's part not to release generally. There were enough bugs and annoyances that it would have been further regression for most instead of improvement. The bike profiles, while OK, are really only a start and barely scratch the surface of what should be included, notably a way to "attach" certain sensors to certain bikes and have those enabled/disabled as a result. That's pretty high on my list for an improvement to that function. Right now, it's just a way to keep an odometer and wheel size (for purposes of speed/distance sensors) on different bikes.

gregm
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Re: ATG Release 1.54.624.3

Post by gregm » Fri May 31, 2019 6:40 pm

So funny -- I don't care a whit about bike profiles -- tho may like them once I see them -- nor do I care about Strava Live segments (whatever those are).

Now...keeping my sensors connected during a ride? Keeping Karoo from freezing for rides of ten hours, twenty hours, or more? That's what captures my interest. :)

You know, a HUGE error on the part of Hammerhead was to (basically) promise update releases regularly every two weeks. That was bad-bad-bad-bad-bad to set expectations at that level, and then pretty much fail instantly.

I do agree, of course, that I do not want a known-bad release! :)

-Greg

JohnJ80
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Re: ATG Release 1.54.624.3

Post by JohnJ80 » Fri May 31, 2019 6:52 pm

They said there would be biweekly releases at the very beginning but did change that even as far back to when they expanded the ATG. At that point, they clearly said that the purpose was to use the ATG to get it right and that took precedence over the biweekly release. THere are still numerous people confused on that even though it’s been a while.

I’m with Doug on the profiles. I don’t see the value in them unless a particular sensor can be attached to a particular wheel or bike. This is just a start down that path and it had to have had some architectural impacts to get that right. That said, I’d prefer seeing an auto calibrated wheel circumference first.

Dobbel
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Re: ATG Release 1.54.624.3

Post by Dobbel » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:10 am

Hi,

Since I bought Karoo for navigation purposes, which is working good right now I would like some additional (but still basic) features:
- able to search from Karoo throug my list of routes
- being able to select Routes being presented on both Dashboard and Karoo, or only on Dashboard and not on Karoo
- create a list of favourite adresses
- full offline navigation
- blinking TBT field (maybe combined with different color) when reaching a turning point
- auto zoom when reaching a turning point and than zoom back to previous setting when turning point has been passed (and of course this should be configurable because in case you want to save battery power)
- surprise me routing

JohnJ80
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Re: ATG Release 1.54.624.3

Post by JohnJ80 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:45 pm

If you look at the dynamic.watch website -which incidentally is very similar to the HH dashboard - you will see that their method of organizing routes is into “collections.” There is a big list that you can sort several ways like you can with Hammerhead, but then you can place a given route into one or more collections.

I think that organizational method would work well for the Karoo especially if there was a collection called “Karoo” and that collection meant that those routes were the ones downloaded to the Karoo. I would guess it would be relatively straightforward to have a listing of collections and the route names on the karoo and add or subtract them from that collection upon which time they would added or removed from the Karoo’s local storage. Given that the dynamic.watch and the Hammerhead dashboards share the same architecture (and even the same root developer) this should be doable.

I am very ok with having the primary route development be done on external app or web app to the Karoo. Adding the connectivity through a cellphone hotspot or cellular modem works great and solves some of the giant UI issues that come with trying to do complete routing on the actual head unit itself. Garmin can do it but it is so unbelievably painful that I can’t imagine anyone really uses it. Wahoo’s method of using an app on a smartphone is a far better UI/UX and it is actually useful. Doing the same though the HH dashboard is an extension of that, I think. This leverages the connectivity advantages that Karoo has (wifi, android OS, cellular modem) and such device connectivity is only going to get stronger in the future.

Better than blinking TbT fields would be audio TbT capability. You can do that today on the Karoo if you pair a BT speaker or earbud and use either Komoot or Osmand as sideloaded apps. Without getting over the top about it, it’s really a transformative feature. Audio TbT on a bike is much more important than even in a car. Also, adding an app to provide haptic feedback through a wearable such as an Apple Watch would also be a better. Staring at a display on a bike is not conducive to long life....

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Re: ATG Release 1.54.624.3

Post by Psyclist » Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:27 am

dthempel wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 3:39 pm
The bike profiles, while OK, are really only a start and barely scratch the surface of what should be included, notably a way to "attach" certain sensors to certain bikes and have those enabled/disabled as a result. That's pretty high on my list for an improvement to that function. Right now, it's just a way to keep an odometer and wheel size (for purposes of speed/distance sensors) on different bikes.
That's good to hear already :)
What I'm not getting: why the "attaching" of different sensors to bikes? Dashboards, yes, obviously you'd be interested in different things on say a MTB or a road bike. But if a sensor is not physically present, it's simply not connected, right? I don't have several bikes to try but at some point I had a second heart rate strap set up and I could simply use one or the other. Doesn't that work the same for other sensors?

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Re: ATG Release 1.54.624.3

Post by dthempel » Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:32 pm

Psyclist wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:27 am
What I'm not getting: why the "attaching" of different sensors to bikes? Dashboards, yes, obviously you'd be interested in different things on say a MTB or a road bike. But if a sensor is not physically present, it's simply not connected, right? I don't have several bikes to try but at some point I had a second heart rate strap set up and I could simply use one or the other. Doesn't that work the same for other sensors?
In my mind, the Karoo should be able to enable/disable sensors automatically based on a profile. I guess I'm assuming that there are battery gains to be made if the radios aren't constantly searching for sensors that will never be attached? I do this manually right now. What other use does the bike profile have other than mileage if they don't add sensors to the list...? Pretty sure my aging Garmin 510 does this already? Maybe not...

JohnJ80
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Re: ATG Release 1.54.624.3

Post by JohnJ80 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:06 pm

dthempel wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:32 pm
Psyclist wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:27 am
What I'm not getting: why the "attaching" of different sensors to bikes? Dashboards, yes, obviously you'd be interested in different things on say a MTB or a road bike. But if a sensor is not physically present, it's simply not connected, right? I don't have several bikes to try but at some point I had a second heart rate strap set up and I could simply use one or the other. Doesn't that work the same for other sensors?
In my mind, the Karoo should be able to enable/disable sensors automatically based on a profile. I guess I'm assuming that there are battery gains to be made if the radios aren't constantly searching for sensors that will never be attached? I do this manually right now. What other use does the bike profile have other than mileage if they don't add sensors to the list...? Pretty sure my aging Garmin 510 does this already? Maybe not...
Garmin did this a few years back and then just went to one list of sensors. I think this works better because, for example, I have several sets of wheels and they all have a speed sensor on them. This wouldn’t work in your scenario.

When I was dealing with a sensor problem a year ago on my Edge 1000, what it looks like to me is that the Edge 1000 would search for sensors rapdily for the first (guess here) 10 minutes of use and then on a much more wide interval after that. I don’t think there is anything, or very little, to be gained by having sensors disabled. The only real benefit I can see to bike profiles is to be able to assign miles to a particular bike for odometer purposes. If you could designate a sensor that was attached to a bike or wheelset and have that then attribute or accumulate miles for that particular device, then that would be good. Power meters or cadence sensors to a bike frame, speed sensor to a wheelset. HH also needs to know what circumference to apply but that’s solved if they would do what everyone else did 5+ years ago and autocalibrate the circumference. Notice you don’t have to ever add that on Garmin or Wahoo.

So Garmin, at least on the Edge 1000, went to ride profiles (or whatever they call them) which are essentially what HH calls “Page sets”.

I have never seen the need for bike profiles and I still don’t except for odometer purposes. But unless you can do the sensor attach thing, it still is marginally useful.

J.

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Re: ATG Release 1.54.624.3

Post by Psyclist » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:29 pm

dthempel wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:32 pm
In my mind, the Karoo should be able to enable/disable sensors automatically based on a profile. I guess I'm assuming that there are battery gains to be made if the radios aren't constantly searching for sensors that will never be attached? I do this manually right now. What other use does the bike profile have other than mileage if they don't add sensors to the list...? Pretty sure my aging Garmin 510 does this already? Maybe not...
As far as I understand ANT+ (mostly from Wikipedia and this; dunno about BTLE), the computer doesn't have to probe for sensors. When you activate the sensor, usually by movement, it starts transmitting and automatically detects collisions with other sensors and adapts by changing its transmission slot. The computer just listens. It might be that you could save some battery by stopping to listen outside the slot times once your sensors have agreed on who gets which time slot, but that would be error prone if you happened to stop for a chat with someone who happens to have one of their sensors in range using the same slot as yours, as the one deciding to switch to a different one might be yours, so I don't think that's what they do.

I see the main appeal of profiles (apart from wheel diameters) just in page sets, so you automagically see different data say on MTB and road bike. Coupling them to sensors would perhaps make sense the other way round: if you see sensor X, assume we're on the road bike, if you see Y, assume it's the MTB. And if you see both, show a confused shark asking where it's at :)

By the way, that ANT document also explains HH's limit of eight sensors: each ANT device can participate in eight channels, and by default there are two devices (i.e. the computer and one sensor) on each channel - unless you configure the channel to be shared so it can take >65000 sensors. So apparently it was an "8 sensors should be enough for everybody" (as long as it helps us to get this sucker outta the door) decision...

JohnJ80
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Re: ATG Release 1.54.624.3

Post by JohnJ80 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:13 pm

Psyclist wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:29 pm

As far as I understand ANT+ (mostly from Wikipedia and this; dunno about BTLE), the computer doesn't have to probe for sensors. When you activate the sensor, usually by movement, it starts transmitting and automatically detects collisions with other sensors and adapts by changing its transmission slot. The computer just listens. It might be that you could save some battery by stopping to listen outside the slot times once your sensors have agreed on who gets which time slot, but that would be error prone if you happened to stop for a chat with someone who happens to have one of their sensors in range using the same slot as yours, as the one deciding to switch to a different one might be yours, so I don't think that's what they do.

I see the main appeal of profiles (apart from wheel diameters) just in page sets, so you automagically see different data say on MTB and road bike. Coupling them to sensors would perhaps make sense the other way round: if you see sensor X, assume we're on the road bike, if you see Y, assume it's the MTB. And if you see both, show a confused shark asking where it's at :)

By the way, that ANT document also explains HH's limit of eight sensors: each ANT device can participate in eight channels, and by default there are two devices (i.e. the computer and one sensor) on each channel - unless you configure the channel to be shared so it can take >65000 sensors. So apparently it was an "8 sensors should be enough for everybody" (as long as it helps us to get this sucker outta the door) decision...
8 channels does not mean that the computer has to have only 8 sensors paired. It just means that in operation, you can have only 8 operating. Other computers allow you to have many and every other computer I have has way more than 8 and probably closer to 20 sensors paired. Yet, when ride time comes, only a few are active and "connect." In practice, 8 active sensors is probably just fine. I'd also add that 8 means ANT+ sensors and would exclude the internal GPS.

Garmin has kind of gone away from bike profiles. There really is no reason to use them from the computer or the users perspective once the sensors are paired AND IF you do auto calibrate on the wheel circumference as do both Garmin and Wahoo. The other benefit to bike profiles is if it is fleshed out more completely and it sort of leads to a maintenance database based on the odometer. In that sense, if you can have the computer automatically pick the bike by some designated sensor, then you can automatically attribute miles to the appropriate bike.

But all that said, I have more wheel sets than I like to admit. So keeping track of the wheel circumference by bike is pretty much worthless and completely obscures miles that I put on the wheels and tires (which would be really helpful to track accurately). So what I would want is a a bike profile that includes a wheel profile or at least the option to separate wheel usage from the frame. Have the bike profile picked by the on the bike sensor - cadence, power, lights etc... Have the circumference set in the wheel profile at tied to the speed sensor. That way I'd be able to actually do something useful with bike profiles.

As it stands now, if HH does what all the other bike computer guys have managed to figure out and do wheel circumference calibration, then the bike profiles as we know them are pretty much meaningless.

I hope that makes sense. I think that a lot of people have some misguided expectations of what bike profiles will do for them. The fact of the matter is the other guys started there and went a way from them. Garmin has "ride profiles" which pretty much is similar to the pages set up app that HH has. If I recall, pre-Edge 1000, there were bike profiles there but then they kind of went away. I'm not sure about that since the Edge 1000 was 3 almost 4 years ago now.

What I would want out of bike profiles tied to the odometer are the following:
  • How many miles on the frame (chain, etc...)
  • How many miles on the tires and wheels separately.
  • Ability to enter data on when I made changes to the bike configuration. The date and mileage I replaced chain, lubed pedals, changed brake pads etc...
  • I'd like "wheel profiles" that allow me to track miles of when the tires are changed and how many miles on the wheels.
  • I'd like to attach a wheel profile to a bike profile and be able to change that the way I change bike profiles now.
Now THAT would be a set of profiles that would be useful. Right now. Now so much. <yawn>
J.

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