Recording without dropouts

Chat about Hammerhead's Karoo in general.
reggieb
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:53 pm

Recording without dropouts

Post by reggieb » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:20 pm

Well, I now have a way to record without dropouts, and get my structured workouts automatically from Trainingpeaks!

All I had to do was strap a watch to my handlebars.

Image

:lol:

All joking aside, these two make a really nice combo. I do get all of my structured workouts, plus easy navigation on a big screen. I am very happy with this combo. Though I do wish my barfly TT was a bit shorter, since the Karoo is slightly off-center....

Hope everyone has a nice spring full of riding.

JohnJ80
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:55 pm

Re: Recording without dropouts

Post by JohnJ80 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:48 pm

In the last two ATG updates, I haven't had a single ride where ANT+ didn't drop out or the ride app didn't crash. Going backwards at least for me.

danclo
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:51 am

Re: Recording without dropouts

Post by danclo » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:07 am

I'm glad I did my karoo away. No more frustrations during every ride. Now I have a garmin 1030 and have no problems anymore.

JohnJ80
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Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:55 pm

Re: Recording without dropouts

Post by JohnJ80 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:45 pm

danclo wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:07 am
I'm glad I did my karoo away. No more frustrations during every ride. Now I have a garmin 1030 and have no problems anymore.
Yeah, well then you have to accept the baked in mediocrity of Garmin. Been there done that.

Odd that if you’re done with Karoo that you keep hanging out here.

reggieb
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:53 pm

Re: Recording without dropouts

Post by reggieb » Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:19 pm

JohnJ80 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:45 pm
danclo wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:07 am
I'm glad I did my karoo away. No more frustrations during every ride. Now I have a garmin 1030 and have no problems anymore.
Yeah, well then you have to accept the baked in mediocrity of Garmin. Been there done that.

Odd that if you’re done with Karoo that you keep hanging out here.
Come on, I have a love-hate relationship with Garmin, and have tried hard to get out of their ecosystem for my bike computer, but the undeniable fact is that they have the most feature-rich ecosystem on the market. That's why I had to slap a Garmin on to my handlebars to augment the Karoo.

danclo
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Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:51 am

Re: Recording without dropouts

Post by danclo » Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:22 pm

reggieb wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:19 pm
JohnJ80 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:45 pm
danclo wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:07 am
I'm glad I did my karoo away. No more frustrations during every ride. Now I have a garmin 1030 and have no problems anymore.
Yeah, well then you have to accept the baked in mediocrity of Garmin. Been there done that.

Odd that if you’re done with Karoo that you keep hanging out here.
Is that forbidden? Is that only the good news show here?

JohnJ80
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:55 pm

Re: Recording without dropouts

Post by JohnJ80 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:51 pm

reggieb wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:19 pm
JohnJ80 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:45 pm
danclo wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:07 am
I'm glad I did my karoo away. No more frustrations during every ride. Now I have a garmin 1030 and have no problems anymore.
Yeah, well then you have to accept the baked in mediocrity of Garmin. Been there done that.

Odd that if you’re done with Karoo that you keep hanging out here.
Come on, I have a love-hate relationship with Garmin, and have tried hard to get out of their ecosystem for my bike computer, but the undeniable fact is that they have the most feature-rich ecosystem on the market. That's why I had to slap a Garmin on to my handlebars to augment the Karoo.
I have the same love-hate relationship with them. Yes, my Edge 1000 works but it's so damn mediocre and infuriatingly average. There is nothing about the thing that is exciting. It works, enough to make me use it on occasion, but it isn't a product I love or even like. When the Karoo works, it is more than head and shoulders over the Garmin products.

So there are two ways to look at this - glass half empty and glass half full. I'm hoping they achieve their reliability targets and if they do, it is in the winner category in my book.

Got it that you've gone back to Garmin. Great. Enjoy it.
Last edited by JohnJ80 on Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JohnJ80
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:55 pm

Re: Recording without dropouts

Post by JohnJ80 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:52 pm

danclo wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:22 pm
JohnJ80 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:45 pm


Yeah, well then you have to accept the baked in mediocrity of Garmin. Been there done that.

Odd that if you’re done with Karoo that you keep hanging out here.
Is that forbidden? Is that only the good news show here?
No - of course not, but I don't see the benefit in straight out bashing either and I think that's kind of odd.

danclo
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:51 am

Re: Recording without dropouts

Post by danclo » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:58 am

JohnJ80 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:52 pm
danclo wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:22 pm
JohnJ80 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:45 pm


Yeah, well then you have to accept the baked in mediocrity of Garmin. Been there done that.

Odd that if you’re done with Karoo that you keep hanging out here.
Is that forbidden? Is that only the good news show here?
No - of course not, but I don't see the benefit in straight out bashing either and I think that's kind of odd.
this is not bashing, I would much rather use the karoo, but after a year the basic things still do not work.
If you have problems with every trip, GPS drop outs, sensors fall away, TBT usually does not work then at least you get frustrated.
So I made a decision and opted for a garmin 1030.
The screen is much less good than the karoo, which I really like to admit, but the basic things work fine

JohnJ80
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:55 pm

Re: Recording without dropouts

Post by JohnJ80 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:41 pm

So you have a 1030. And you’re done with Karoo. Got it.

Bye.

reggieb
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:53 pm

Re: Recording without dropouts

Post by reggieb » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:56 pm

JohnJ80 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:51 pm
reggieb wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:19 pm
JohnJ80 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:45 pm


Yeah, well then you have to accept the baked in mediocrity of Garmin. Been there done that.

Odd that if you’re done with Karoo that you keep hanging out here.
Come on, I have a love-hate relationship with Garmin, and have tried hard to get out of their ecosystem for my bike computer, but the undeniable fact is that they have the most feature-rich ecosystem on the market. That's why I had to slap a Garmin on to my handlebars to augment the Karoo.
I have the same love-hate relationship with them. Yes, my Edge 1000 works but it's so damn mediocre and infuriatingly average. There is nothing about the thing that is exciting. It works, enough to make me use it on occasion, but it isn't a product I love or even like. When the Karoo works, it is more than head and shoulders over the Garmin products.

So there are two ways to look at this - glass half empty and glass half full. I'm hoping they achieve their reliability targets and if they do, it is in the winner category in my book.

Got it that you've gone back to Garmin. Great. Enjoy it.
I think that you and I have a very different definition of mediocre and average. I'd say you're describing sexiness and flash. I think you're being disingenuous to say that the Karoo is ever head and shoulders over Garmin products. The screen on the Karoo is very nice, but they don't take full advantage of it. Other than that, what? It's less reliable, it has far fewer features, and while I agree if they hit everything on their roadmap, then it would be better than even an Edge 1030, they aren't even close to realizing that goal. So today, as it stands, there is just no way to describe the Karoo as "Head and shoulders," over Garmin's products.

I agree that the Edges lack a bit of panache, that's for sure (though I feel the multisport watches do not, they in fact exude a bit more sexiness, but that's just opinion), to call them mediocre, or "average," is a stretch. To claim the Karoo is (ever) "Head and shoulders" better is just fantasy.

The Karoo was worth the $180 I paid on eBay for sure. And I hope they do eventually hit all of the goals off their roadmap. But they're a long way from the light at the end of the tunnel.

JohnJ80
Posts: 218
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Re: Recording without dropouts

Post by JohnJ80 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:12 pm

reggieb wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:56 pm


I think that you and I have a very different definition of mediocre and average. I'd say you're describing sexiness and flash. I think you're being disingenuous to say that the Karoo is ever head and shoulders over Garmin products. The screen on the Karoo is very nice, but they don't take full advantage of it. Other than that, what? It's less reliable, it has far fewer features, and while I agree if they hit everything on their roadmap, then it would be better than even an Edge 1030, they aren't even close to realizing that goal. So today, as it stands, there is just no way to describe the Karoo as "Head and shoulders," over Garmin's products.

I agree that the Edges lack a bit of panache, that's for sure (though I feel the multisport watches do not, they in fact exude a bit more sexiness, but that's just opinion), to call them mediocre, or "average," is a stretch. To claim the Karoo is (ever) "Head and shoulders" better is just fantasy.

The Karoo was worth the $180 I paid on eBay for sure. And I hope they do eventually hit all of the goals off their roadmap. But they're a long way from the light at the end of the tunnel.
We probably do.

I agree - loudly - that the reliability issue is a huge problem and it is fatal in the medium term if they don't fix it. Putting that aside for now and discussion features, I think that the the Karoo has it all over the Garmin units (I own two) in terms of my use case. The maps are better, the nav is more intuitive and useful, the display is far better (and they have fixed much of the problems in terms of screen usage and I anticipate that will also improve) are all better than the Garmin.

When you consider the ability to side load apps, the Karoo really pulls out ahead on navigation. Garmin isn't even in the same league as Osmand, Komoot or others.

The other thing that I don't like about Garmin is that they throw in every possible feature - many of which most users never even touch. That leads to overly complicated set up etc...

What Garmin does do well is their GPS and their sensor integration. The rest of it - just mediocre legacy crap, IMHO. I have an Edge 1000 and it is just plain irritating to use. The display is difficult to read at lowish angles of sun. The bluetooth connectivity to my phone is irritatingly unreliable and the frequent connect/disconnect errors so distracting as to make the feature unusable. The beeper is impossible to hear in traffic. The UI for routing and navigation especially if you are trying to enter some data is infuriating. But it does work, in a mediocre crappy sort of way.

And that's how I came to Karoo - I'm willing to try anything to get rid of Garmin. In point of fact, I ditched my Edge 1000 for the Wahoo Element because it's UI was simpler, it had excellent sensor support, the data entry via smartphone was brilliant, the display contrast is exceptional. The only downside is the poor map quality and it's (at best) navigation. Otherwise, it beats Garmin hands down and at a lower price. If that is what it takes to beat Garmin, then it says a lot about the abject mediocrity of the product and a ridiculously high price.

So, if Karoo fixes the reliability problem, they top Garmin easily for what most people use it for. If they don't fix the reliability problem, they are toast.

When I look at and use the 1030, I'm just so overwhelmed by the small marginal gains it has over the 1000 at such an extraordinary markup. With products like that, if Garmin's competition can get their act together, they deserve to get clobbered. It's just a lazy extension of what they had done before. They are so ripe to be disrupted.

If Karoo fails, I'll go back to my Wahoo Elemnt. But I sure hope they are successful because Garmin is leaving the door wide open for someone to do just that.

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Steve
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Re: Recording without dropouts

Post by Steve » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:23 pm

My Karoo has clearer maps than my Garmin 520 for sure, which is mainly because of the nice big screen on Karoo. But for me, navigation itself is far worse than even my 520. That's because for my club rides I don't want my unit figuring out its own "better" route than the one I plotted. I want it to stick exactly to the planned route and I also want my own custom turn instructions. This isn't even an option on Karoo. On my Garmin I can load a TCX with custom cue sheet and I'm fine, I can get instructions at a roundabout telling me to take the third exit which I know are right because I made that instruction and I'm not just relying on a computer-generated instruction.

So for me, navigation sucks big time on Karoo. Don't even get me started on the inability to load routes if the Dashboard is playing up, the hopelessly badly designed route offlining which is unbelievably flaky etc.

Karoo head and shoulders above Garmin? On the clarity of its screen, yes. On everything else, the opposite is true.

JohnJ80
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Re: Recording without dropouts

Post by JohnJ80 » Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:50 pm

So why do you even bother then? Go to Garmin exclusively.

dthempel
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Re: Recording without dropouts

Post by dthempel » Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:23 pm

JohnJ80 wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:50 pm
So why do you even bother then? Go to Garmin exclusively.
I think the answer to that (for me) is that I'm stubborn and intend to hold their feet to the fire to live up to the wildly optimistic expectations and hype they sold (and continue to sell) on this device. The "roadmap" has been drastically altered from when most of us bought the device. By now we should have an app store, phone integration and a long list of items. Hit the "Wayback Machine" from early 2018 and see for yourself. Now look at the current list.

Were they just wide-eyed optimists, or snake-oil dealers that sold us a bill of goods and now that they've got their money (although probably not enough to sustain this for long), they realize it's way harder than they thought to deliver on all those promises and technologies. The lack of interaction and engagement of the community is startling and off-putting at best.

For all its warts, the device mostly works for me. Do I trust it ride-to-ride? No. Am I attempting to make it work. Yes... again out of stubbornness to get something out of my "investment". I waited a long time as one of the early "Kickstarters" and I'm still waiting for those promises to see the light of day.

The simple solution would be to open up the device to a limited set of external apps and add some phone connectivity. With that screen, they'd almost overnight have a compelling device with some (lots?) of customization with the right apps. They seem blind to this seemingly obvious "solution".

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Steve
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Re: Recording without dropouts

Post by Steve » Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:08 pm

JohnJ80 wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:50 pm
So why do you even bother then? Go to Garmin exclusively.
I paid good money for my Karoo. I'm going to damn well hold HH to the promises that they made to all of us when they sold us this device.

As Doug said, we're a year on, and look where we are. We're still way off what was originally promised.

To me, HH have two very fundamental problems. One, they have a very small development team, as evidenced by their snail-like progress. Two, they don't even understand how their own software works, as evidenced by their constant messing things up when they touch anything (I stand by my oft-repeated suggestion that they initially hired some contractors who wrote them some very shoddy software with no documentation, and they're still struggling with the effects of that). I seriously hope that they're gradually completely re-writing the software in the background.

dthempel
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Re: Recording without dropouts

Post by dthempel » Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:29 pm

This is June of 2017. We still don't have anything that looks as good as these (obviously doctored) screens and images:

https://web.archive.org/web/20170606200 ... ages/karoo

Steinello
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Re: Recording without dropouts

Post by Steinello » Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:38 pm

Steve wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:08 pm
JohnJ80 wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:50 pm
So why do you even bother then? Go to Garmin exclusively.
... I seriously hope that they're gradually completely re-writing the software in the background.
... I fear they don't have the financial resources to re-write the software.
... the only chance I really see is to "open" the software for the community.
... but I think it could be to late :-(

JohnJ80
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Re: Recording without dropouts

Post by JohnJ80 » Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:54 pm

Good answers. Put me also in the camp that wants what they promised and willing to hold them to it.

I think the reason they didn’t hit their promises are twofold: 1. naive inexperienced leaders and engineers. 2. Incomplete internal Specifications leading to poor design.

Here we are, a year later, and we’re STILL iterating trying to get reliability on a lot of the same issues. That’s hard to accept and I keep hoping they get it figured out. That was supposed to be the goal for Q1 - which ends in a mere
30 days and we don’t have a lot of progress to point to.

What I wonder is how long the money holds out. They must have pretty friendly financing because I can’t imagine a typical investment banker or venture capitalist putting up with this without purging the management or adding some overseer with serious control to see that it got done.

Steinello
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Re: Recording without dropouts

Post by Steinello » Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:59 am

... and without a commercial App-Shop where should they earn the money to survive.
... the only alternative chance would be to sell enough new devices.
... and if I look at the amount of registered users here in the forum there is no increase :-(

This shouldn't be bashing but nobody can close the eyes to the situation.

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