My Karoo Test Journal

Chat about Hammerhead's Karoo in general.
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drisotope
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My Karoo Test Journal

Post by drisotope » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:21 am

Today was my 8th recorded activity with the Karoo, and as it comes the day after the latest software update, I thought it would be the perfect time to do a long test. I ran the Karoo and my Edge 520 together for the entirety. Here are the outputs, some very close, some... not so close. I dunno what they did, but the power numbers are significantly better after the update. Still way too much 0W activity, but the cadence has vastly improved.

Distance
Karoo 87.33 miles
Garmin 86.57 miles

Moving Time
Karoo 4.48.01
Garmin 4.40.20

Elevation
Karoo 2,371ft (corrected by Strava) last recorded on the display was 677ft
Garmin 2,054ft

Avg. Cadence
Karoo 85rpm
Garmin 84rpm

Weighted Avg. Power
Karoo 185W
Garmin 210W

Total Work
Karoo 2,666kJ
Garmin 3,084kJ

Karoo showed 0-24W output for 92 minutes of the activity, which is probably right around double the amount of time I was actually not producing power. But it is soooooooooo much better than just 2 days ago. The auto-pause remains an issue-- I could watch the moving times keep getting further and further apart as the ride went on.

But the ride had two long stops-- at mile 62 I went to my wife's workplace and we went out to lunch, and I stopped at the LBS on the way home at mile 75, so the Karoo was on for about 7.5 hours total. Worked perfectly all day. The elevation and power still need some tweaking, but for only having had the thing for a week and a half now, this ride was extremely encouraging.
Last edited by drisotope on Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Steve
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Re: My first "proper" Karoo test

Post by Steve » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:31 am

Seems promising. I'm looking forward to testing the latest update tomorrow, particularly to see how the average speed looks after some fixes.

Thanks for sharing.

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Re: My first "proper" Karoo test

Post by jeffjsmith33 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:14 pm

Thanks for this posting. It is good to hear that things are moving in the right direction. Kudos to Hammerhead for getting the fixes out in a timely way, and thanks to the early users who are fighting the frustrations and sending the useful feedback to HH.

I can't wait to get mine - I am hoping for sometime in April but I have no idea of course!

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drisotope
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Re: My first "proper" Karoo test

Post by drisotope » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:54 pm

Did 15 miles of recovery this morning in constant drizzle, and the touchscreen worked flawlessly even soaking wet.

I can't hardly wait for the big update next Friday, as I've got a 67 mile dirt ride on Saturday. The smaller nav arrow will be great, and if they fix my power2max smoothing issue, it's gonna be brilliant.

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drisotope
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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by drisotope » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:58 pm

Sunday turned out to be a non-ride with the Karoo, had to fall back to the Edge 520. I was ready to get on the bike, pressed the power button on the Karoo, and... nothing. Unresponsive. Plugged in the USB, and the battery was stone dead. Left it charging to full, then powered it off.

Powered it up this morning, and despite having been switched off, the battery had dropped to 96%. By the time I got to the end of the driveway and headed out, it had dropped to 94%. Some cause for concern. That concern grew over the course of my 2-hour dirt ride, as the battery indicator was emptying rapidly. Finished the ride in 2h6m, and the Karoo battery was down to 36%. That is... a huge drop. I mean, it's using 0.5% per minute. Which is bizarre, as it was powered on for 7.5hours last Friday and used about the same amount of battery. One of the HH guys mentioned something about an open process running that is responsible for the rapid battery drain-- I sure hope they can patch this one really soon.

Had to fall back to the Edge for Strava upload yet again. The Karoo showed as paired to my HRM but recorded no data, and gave me average pwr. of 98W and avg. cadence of 44rpm (compared to 167W and 72rpm on the Garmin,) so it's back to not playing nice with the power2max, after a couple of rides with it getting better. I think when the Karoo does cadence it's counting zeros, which would explain some of the crazy low numbers-- I took the Garmin data for total crank revolutions (5788) and divided it by the moving time (127min) which gives 45.5-- factor in the Karoo's nutty auto-pause behavior, and that would easily explain an average cadence of 44rpm. Too bad it's not a useful number. I don't know a single person who records cadence while counting zeros.

Tomorrow (3/13) is an off day, but I've got 40-50 miles on tap for Wednesday, more dirt/gravel on Thursday, and my 67 mile w/ 7,000ft fire road extravaganza on Saturday. Karoo is getting another workout this week.

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Steve
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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by Steve » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:27 pm

Interesting, I haven't looked at average cadence on my Karoo, but I think I will out of interest to see how it compares with my Garmin data

Strange about the battery though. It does sound like something was busy that shouldn't have been. Are you using a SIM card, out of interest?

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by Peterdbaldwin1 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:04 pm

I’ve had some fun with auto pause. I set it at the automatic value of 4mph. Sometimes the timer would stop, but on other occasions it would continue! Hence, there was quite a difference in my average speed between the Karoo and the Edge 820 that I was also carrying. Big problems with the offline map and route downloads. The download would reach between 12-40% and the revert to server error. This was the case whatever I’d done, including rebooting. I’ve made HH aware of this, and apparently it’s gonna get a fix with the next update. The problem is that it was the last update that started causing this fault......worrying

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drisotope
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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by drisotope » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:33 am

Steve wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:27 pm
Interesting, I haven't looked at average cadence on my Karoo, but I think I will out of interest to see how it compares with my Garmin data

Strange about the battery though. It does sound like something was busy that shouldn't have been. Are you using a SIM card, out of interest?
No, no SIM. I'm on Verizon, who have abandoned 3G support completely, so I'm still shopping around to find the absolute cheapest cost standalone 3G SIM available-- I'm not too keen on the $99 a year option I've seen several Karoo users have opted for.

As to the download issues, I've had very good luck with having the unit plugged in, which seems to prevent the Karoo from going to sleep, which more often than not busts the wifi connection.I haven't had to resort to airplane mode yet, but my internet is pretty fast-- an update typically takes between 2 and 3 minutes.

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by drisotope » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:37 am

Poured rain all night, and I waited out the morning drizzle for a nice 30 miles around lunchtime. The Karoo was fantastic all the way through. Nothing unexpected, cadence still absurdly low (44 on Karoo, 80 on Garmin,) average power still very low (98W on Karoo, 165W on Garmin) but I did not anticipate either of those to change. The curveball was the battery-- 2 hours total activity time, so the unit was on for probably 2h15m, and used 22% of the battery. Monday it was on for maybe 30 more minutes and used 3x as much battery. Weird.

While I occasionally agree with complaints about map contrast, I love that map. It's big, it's easy to read, and it's spot-on accurate. At least 90% of the time, the Karoo is on the map. If it takes a few more months to finally get that Garmin off of the bike, that's fine. I cannot wait for the next software update.

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by Steve » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:37 am

I checked the average cadence figure on a ride yesterday and it was similarly low. As you say, it does look like it's counting zeroes.

As for the contrast on the map, what sort of areas are you riding in? I don't have so much of an issue wirh the contrast when it's showing white roads against a green background, but it's more when it's white roads against very light grey in urban areas.

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by drisotope » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:19 pm

Mixed some fire roads with some errands this afternoon. A hair over 36 miles, 2h36m moving time, 3h30m total on time, and the Karoo only used 36% of it's battery. It held at the 78% from when the last ride finished, and was at 42% when today ended, so that was just under 10% per hour for both rides. That is very encouraging for a device whose backlight is always on.

Fix the cadence/power issue, and address the map pointer, and this thing will be approaching excellent.

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by drisotope » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:12 pm

Another long(er) ride in the books. Sadly, the Karoo numbers were worlds apart from the data on the Garmin. Battery life was... not great. By the four hour mark, the battery was dipping below 30%, so I might have gotten 6 hours on time out of it. Which is bad, as the total on-time for my Garmin was 6.5 hours. I plugged it into the backup at 4 hours.

So here's the end totals (hopefully the font colors work)

Edge 520 / Karoo

Distance
62.76 miles / 62.4 miles
Moving Time
5.19.33 / 5.35.38
Elapsed Time
6.29.02 / 6.27.45
Elevation
4,583ft / 4,212ft
Avg. Pwr (unweighted)
153W / 122W
Avg. Cadence
73rpm / 50rpm
Avg. Speed
11.8mph / 11.2mph

Huge improvement in figuring total ascent, but the power2max issue continues to ruin my power/cadence/kJ numbers. The auto-pause continues to be a significant issue-- sometimes, the Karoo will stay paused for as long as ten seconds after I've started moving, and doesn't pause until I've been stopped for even longer-- those 16 minutes of increased elapsed time are surely due to the fidgety behavior of the auto-pause. The nav also worked flawlessly, but still had the bottom quarter of the screen covered with WAITING FOR GPS for the whole ride. I was hoping they'd have that fixed. It's definitely a 2 steps forward 1 step back process right now.

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by nnovod » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:47 pm

Hope you're sending this onto HH. This is the second update that appears to have taken steps back as well as forward. It does makes you worry about HH's level of quality control.

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by Steve » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:55 am

My guess is that the auto pause is responsible for most of those differences. They really need to get that working a lot better. The avg cadence difference is I suspect down to counting zeroes.

That waiting for GPS thing must be annoying.

Good to see that the ascent figure is getting better though. Thanks for sharing, it's interesting to see these figures as the software develops.

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drisotope
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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by drisotope » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:11 pm

I'm pretty confident that unsurprisingly, the biggest drain on the Karoo battery is the screen-- but the adaptive brightness is the real culprit. I've now logged wildly different battery drain rate per hour depending on the weather-- usually markedly better on cloudy/overcast days. I'll know for 100% sure as we get closer to summer, when I do more riding before the sun comes up and after it goes down. I'm guessing the battery life will be excellent when riding in the dark, and the adaptive brightness doesn't need to do much.

For today's Karoo performance update, I'm stuck relying on the Garmin for Strava uploads until they figure out the issue with logging from ANT+ power meters-- until my power2max is recoded properly, the Karoo just blows all of my tracked metrics. Looking forward to the day when I'll see an average cadence above 50.

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by Steve » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:26 am

I don't know if you saw the latest HH livestream, or read my summary of it, but the adaptive brightness is something that HH discussed. They basically admitted that it's not really working properly at the moment and that it's too bright, and that they need to tune the settings. They suggested that everyone should turn off adaptive brightness and turn the screen down to the minimum brightness required to read it while riding, to maximise battery life.

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by drisotope » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:28 pm

Still using adaptive brightness, and today was exceptionally bright and sunny-- almost cloudless. The Karoo started the ride @ 82% charge, and finished at 55% after about 2h40m of unit on time, almost exactly 10% drain per hour. I was exclusively on the map screen, and consider this to be excellent in terms of battery life.

Ignoring the logging problems with my power meter, the auto-pause is pretty much the only major issue I have with the Karoo right now. I know the power and cadence will be wonky until Hammerhead fixes the ANT+ issues, but the behavior of the auto-pause is inexcusable. It ruins every metric it touches-- for the first ~20 minutes of the ride, everything between the Karoo and the Edge was in perfect agreement-- elevation gain, average speed, distance, elapsed time, all identical. The ascent was the same down to the foot. Once I got off pavement and had to do some carries to get over gates/K-rails and spent some low-speed time in sand and really rocky areas, everything went sideways. The Karoo ended the 0.3 miles short, with 100 less feet of ascent (out of 1500) which of course brought down average speed, etc, etc.

But that map. So good.

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by drisotope » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:03 pm

Another good day with Karoo. As has been the case with recent rides, no issues aside from the lingering ANT+ PM problem and the fickleness that is auto-pause. With a tyotal unit on-time of just over 4 hours on a mostly overcast day, unit ended the day on 51% battery (started at full) for ~12% drain per hour, fairly typical. As usual, I was on the map screen for almost the entire time

Edge 520 / Karoo

Distance
50.84 miles / 50.9 miles
Moving Time
2.52.55 /2.56.21
Elapsed Time
3.56.07 / 3.59.13
Elevation
1,991ft / 1,913ft
Avg. Pwr (unweighted)
186W / 148W
Avg. Cadence
82rpm / 63rpm
Avg. Speed
17.6mph / 17.3mph

Total ascent would be spot-on, if I think not for auto-pause being so squidgy. If the next update addresses the ANT+ PM problem, I will be absolutely over the moon.

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by dthempel » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:09 pm

If you don't have a way to do it, I would be interested in seeing one of your FIT files. Did you post which power meter? I'd like to see if you're getting the same cadence drop-out that I'm seeing...

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by drisotope » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:39 pm

I'm using a power2max Type S, which happens to be ANT+ only, which is maybe where the Karoo is having problems. No one seems to report issues with PM reporting over BT. I'd have to email you the FIT I reckon, as I can't attach one to the post-- I reckon attachments are for images only.

Also wanted to add an edit to the last update-- now I'm not saying that the text for the battery life indicator is too small, but it turns out that it was at 61% after the end of the ride, not 51%-- as it's been in standby now for a couple of hours and is at 59%. So based on that, it looks like it was using a hair under 10% per hour, which is fantastic.

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