Pre-release v270

Chat about Hammerhead's Karoo in general.
dthempel
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Pre-release v270

Post by dthempel » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:15 pm

What's new in release 1.5.270.3
New features and improvements:
Changes to auto and manual pause - A rider can now manually pause a ride even if Karoo has already auto-paused. Once manually paused, a manual resume is needed to continue the ride.
Ability to stop/start cues during a ride - A rider can choose to stop turn cues and then re-enable them. If users are familiar with a portion of a route, this allows the riders to fine tune their navigation experience.
Revamp Pause/Resume Indication - The gray ‘pause’ symbol is no longer displayed on screens when paused. The pause indication continues to be shown in the status bar at the top of the screen and a brief resume graphic is shown on each screen as a ride is resumed.
Prompt User to Start Ride on Travel Detected - Following last release where Karoo enabled a rider to enter the ride app without starting a ride, this update now prompts the user to start a ride if motion is detected and an activity has not been started. One can ignore this prompt if desired and later start the activity with a button press.

Bug Fixes:
Auto-pause availability during the ride - You can again toggle auto-pause on or off and have it take effect mid-ride.
GPS errors - We addressed the message that read GPS signal says "NO GPS" at the start of the ride.
Karoo Fails to Acquire GPS at Ride Start - Changes were made to address issues with GPS connectivity problems reported at ride/activity start.
Menu slider doesn't disappear after auto-resuming the ride - Engineers fixed an issue where the slide-up menu wasn’t being removed when a rider resumed riding (auto-resume) after an auto-pause.
During ride, resume menu slider disappears when ride app is shutdown - With this update, if a rider shuts down the ride application while the sliding menu is active, the menu will continue to be active when the ride app is entered again. Previously the menu was “lost” in this sequence.
Side buttons are not toggling off in ride app - The on-screen button graphics can again be removed using a settings menu option. With the changes to the ride application, the display preference for button graphics is enacted when an activity is started (rather than when the ride app is started).
Dashboard:
An entirely rewritten and improved Dashboard is available. The user interface is completely new, with smooth scrolling maps and a modern, seamless flow between pages. ATG members can test the new Dashboard at Dashboard V1

nnovod
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Re: Pre-release v270

Post by nnovod » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:39 pm

Nothing about fixing the battery drain when paused that was introduced a couple of releases back? If that's not fixed they should drop the feature that allows HR etc. to be monitored while paused - it's definitely not worth the 25%+/hr. battery usage I was seeing.

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Re: Pre-release v270

Post by JohnJ80 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:41 am

This stuff is starting to quickly get into the list of things that I think were wrong in a big way with Karoo. This is good progress in my opinion - presuming they don't hose up the implementation which, heaven knows, they have great skill in being able to do.

On facebook they posted some stuff and some of us here commented and asked questions - I think Steve asked about map shading. I asked about Di2 support and display formatting. Looks like map shading and display formatting is coming in possibly the updated after this one and the Di2 stuff might be coming shortly thereafter.

If so, and supposing they continue the progress on stability, they might actually be making some progress. We'll see. The updates into mid October are going to be important. Shortly thereafter, in the Northern Hemisphere, cycling season starts to wind down fast going into winter so it will be tough to get feedback on issues.

J.

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Re: Pre-release v270

Post by Kevinphiltjens » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:23 pm

@dthempel: when can we expect another video on YouTube? :)

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Re: Pre-release v270

Post by RustedRoot » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:05 pm

Thanks Doug, as always, for the heads-up.

John, pray tell, what prompts your optimism that Di2 is nigh?

I, as the resident curmudgeon, opine that the new stuff in v270 are really fixes to what should be, not "new" features. I'm open to learning otherwise.

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Re: Pre-release v270

Post by JohnJ80 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:02 pm

There was a recent facebook post by Hammerhead that seemed to indicate that base functions of this might be on the way. I tried finding it again but can't. I doubt they deleted it, it's just that it's hard to find historical posts on FB (at least for me). This comment is also tempered by my recognition that they have a less than casual relationship with being truthful.

I think I'd best characterize it this way: There is a behavior change that seems to be coming from HH. There seems to be an urgency that wasn't there before and they seem to be addressing problems and adding features now. We'll see if this continues over the next month - their last really before the end of the broader cycling season in NA and the EU (northern hemisphere).

If they don't get points on the board before then, they are probably in serious trouble because they will then be a year late on promises and have to fend off product announcements from the competition over the winter. I'd guess their survival is considerably less than even odds at that point. But if they are funded by parents, then there may be less business savvy applied to that than should be.

J.

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Steve
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Re: Pre-release v270

Post by Steve » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:54 pm

John - I went looking for the answers that they'd given you and me there on FB, and I couldn't find them either. Which seems a bit odd. Though it could well be just a FB quirk rather than anything more sinister.

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Re: Pre-release v270

Post by Steve » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:33 pm

Found it. It doesn't sound, unsurprisingly, like Di2 is coming particularly soon:

UI updates that introduce new visual data fields and grid systems for effective use of the screen space will begin to be implemented in around three weeks, after the next software update.
...
Karoo’s integration with Shimano Di2 and other electronic drivetrains is an exciting idea to us that will open up a wide spectrum of fascinating applications and data for users. It’s on our roadmap and something we’re looking forward to tackling, but at this time, we’re not committing to a timeline for these, as we want to focus on the device’s core features and general stability and usability first.
...
Sensor battery status is one of our current focuses, along with data visualization, routing and mapping, and power meter calibration. At the current rate of progress, our goal is to have battery status available by December or the end of the year.

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Re: Pre-release v270

Post by JohnJ80 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:21 am

Steve - I pushed them in the comments below that comment and they seemed to commit to the gear selection and battery state coming earlier and were noncommittal on the push button support in the Dura Ace shifters. If they deleted that comment - which I think was right after that - that would be quite interesting. In that case, the Chinese proverb that says "The most important thing is that which is not being said." would apply.

J.

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Re: Pre-release v270

Post by Steve » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:40 am

I think that comment is still there. Sorry that I missed it above. It looks like there are at least three different (but similar) advertising posts from HH on FB, so it seems to be a matter of waiting until the right one randomly pops up on your feed.

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Re: Pre-release v270

Post by Steve » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:54 pm

John - I found it again and the above is the last thing there on that topic. I can't see a response to your question about gear selection.

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Re: Pre-release v270

Post by JohnJ80 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:06 pm

Then pretty sure they deleted it. They said something to the effect that implied the field data (gear position and battery status) would come soon as in yet this year. I got the impression they were not really looking at the button integration.

Interesting - again, they have a revisionist attitude with truth telling.

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Re: Pre-release v270

Post by JohnJ80 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:39 pm

Steve wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:54 pm
John - I found it again and the above is the last thing there on that topic. I can't see a response to your question about gear selection.
Hi Steve - after you posted this, I went back and asked the question directly again (hint to HH: not going to go away without an answer). Here's what they said:
Our current focus is on data visualization, routing & mapping, and power meter calibration coverage with sensor battery states. Di2 and eTap will follow next year.
I'm disappointed, I think a lot of people who would buy a premium bike computer might also have invested in premium bike components, but I do genuinely and greatly appreciate the direct answer (nice change). But here in the EU/UK and US, the broader cycling season is nearing an end except for the die hards (like me). So I'd probably only get two months usage out of it here until I quit the road for the year and switch over to the fatbike when the snow flies.

I also think the money guys applied some pressure and got them to get their head screwed on straight in terms of priorities. I also find their organization curious. They now have an SVP of Software and a VP of software as well as an SVP of Operations and a VP of operations. That's a lot of layers for such a small company. But I suspect that the way this went was that the founders have some stock and are the SVPs and the money guys forced some adult supervision into the two areas in which they have had serious near death experiences. The guys who came in have experience and credentials that matter whereas the guys who are the SVPs, not so much.

I feel like this is a reasonable set of achievable management priorities in the medium term. It aims them a bit more at the enthusiast rider/gravel riders/randoneers/fondo riders and away from pure performance or pure touring. Pure performance is pretty well covered and the pure touring play has no margin (bike tour enthusiasts tend to be cheapskates - look at the margin dump in Garmin's Explore product series). That large, relatively well heeled segment in the middle is a landing spot that needs just what they are prioritizing. To that, if they add their own curated app store, they will be able to leverage the other two key differentiators fast (cellular modem and android OS) for functionality. That would give them a pretty strong and defensible niche. Hope they get after it and get it done ASAP.

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Re: Pre-release v270

Post by Steve » Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:27 am

I'm impressed to see that HH corrected themselves (on FB) in terms of their response to me on the maps. Although I'm not surprised that it's not as soon as they first said, realistic timescales and proper communication is a promising step forward:

Hi Steve. Just wanted to give you a quick update on the new map design, which is likely to take a little longer to reach you than we communicated in the comment above. The reason is that offline maps will need to be redownloaded when the new map updates land, so for the sake of user convenience we've decided to bundle several map improvements into one larger update. Apologies for the slightly longer wait for this improvement - and apologies too for the premature announcement of this feature by our social team. In the meantime, you'll be able to get a preview of the new map look with the launch of the new Dashboard that ATG members are currently testing.

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Re: Pre-release v270

Post by Steinello » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:11 am

@Steve
... how I read your post there doesn´t changes anything with the dashboard and the Map-design for the next updates :oops:
... I hope we will hear truth in the near future.
... I have no idea how Hammerhead will sell new devices with the actual behaviour.
... I´m very sad what they´ve done with the promising product :(

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Re: Pre-release v270

Post by dthempel » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:55 pm

I'm not sure what "new map look" they're talking about. While admittedly I don't do a lot of route creation as I don't travel much and know my local roads, I don't see anything different. In addition, it looks like something's not quite right, at least in my neighborhood. I'll post the image below, but to describe it, you can see that the initial "pin" is placed correctly, but the "route" gets moved across a 4-lane highway onto a completely separate road. Routing mid-ride was OK and seemed to work, but when trying to place a pin near the start to complete the route and "get home", I also can't place the final pin. It routes me down into a neighboring cul-de-sac and just stops. I've made routes from my driveway before, so this is clearly something off with the maps as they think my neighborhood doesn't exist. The house was build in the late 90s, so it's not exactly a new development. Visually, I really don't see anything different about the tool. What am I missing?
new_dashboard.png
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Harold
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Re: Pre-release v270

Post by Harold » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:26 pm

From the header, it looks like you're still using the current Dashboard. There's a link to the new version in your ATG email. I notice you're also looking at the OpenCycleMap overlay, rather than the actual Karoo cycling maps.

I've attached a comparison of the old and new Dashboard maps. It's just two screenshots of my desktop stuck together, so apologies if it's enormous.
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maps.png
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dthempel
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Re: Pre-release v270

Post by dthempel » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:59 pm

You are correct. I assumed they were handling ATG vs. non-ATG members strictly by login information like they're doing with the Karoo and your serial number.

That said, my neighborhood is still apparently a black hole that "doesn't exist" as far as the mapping/routing is concerned. So... for me... this is a step back. Visually the new Dashboard is a bit more appealing. Without knowing how the map is going to look on the Karoo itself, I'll reserve judgement until that appears on my device.

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Re: Pre-release v270

Post by Steve » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:12 pm

Harold, are the new maps going to look similar on Karoo too? If so, the increased contrast looks great, and I look forward to it. Nice to have you here, by the way

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Re: Pre-release v270

Post by Kevinphiltjens » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:35 pm

Hi guys,

Bought me a Karoo on eBay. Took it out on a first ride today together with SRM pc8 which I normally use.
All in all I was pretty satisfied with what I saw, certainly after having read so many negative posts... I have to say that I was getting worried with the purchase.
I tried a route of 38 kilometers and the tbt navigation worked fine except for 1 little thing. I put in a little loop which meant that I was passing the same point twice. At the second passing it did give again a cue to go right, which was correct for the first passing, but the second time I knew I had to go straight ahead. So the cue was incorrect but when I passed the point, 2 seconds afterwards the next correct cue was displayed.

As far as data quality for hr and power goes, I found this to be perfectly in line with the data on the pc8. Only thing was a difference in avg power but this is due to the pc8 where I exclude the zero values.

All in all it was a good first ride.

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