My Karoo Test Journal

Chat about Hammerhead's Karoo in general.
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drisotope
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A sort-of TBT test

Post by drisotope » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:24 pm

It was a re-ride of a route I did this time last year, so TBT was not at all called for-- which is why I figured this was a good test day for it. Route was available as soon as I powered up the Karoo; made sure that TBT was on and the route was available offline. Just out of a sense of caution I didn't hit start until I started rolling. It worked great. Had to re-route me right off the bat as I got barely a mile from the house and realized I had forgotten something. I don't fault the Karoo at all for some wonky directions, as it wasn't a "hand built" route but rather a Karoo route made out of a Strava route which was itself made out of a Strava activity. It's a copy of a copy so I'm not surprised if some of the edges are a little fuzzy. Overall, the Karoo did very well. This was pretty much an "everything on" ride-- only BT and adaptive brightness were off-- so the Karoo chugged down 56% of the battery in a 3h15m total time, for 17% per hour. Would WiFi off have made a difference? Dunno. I'm fairly comfortable with that battery use.

Edge 520 / Karoo

Moving Time
2.58.54 / 2.59.00
Distance
53.44 miles / 54.32 miles
Avg. Speed
17.9mph / 18.2mph
Elapsed Time
3.15.40 / 3.15.14
Elevation
1,368ft / 1,417ft* (Strava corrected to 1,734)
Weighted Avg. Pwr
212W / 211W
Total Work
1,916kJ / 1,929kJ
Avg. Cadence
85rpm / 86rpm

That 6 second variance between moving times makes me very happy. That's auto-pause behaving the way it's supposed to.

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by JohnJ80 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:22 pm

Good news. Coincidentally, I went on a two hour ride today and used TbT for the first time. Seemed to work ok, but I wound up changing routes a couple of times and then got the dreaded WFI blockage (this might have been a route that was not yet available offline, dunno). Anyhow, turned nav cues off and it was fine for the rest of the ride.

I also had auto pause on and it worked great. Very heartened by this ride. Making some progress here, I think. Distance matched the routing etc... Pretty happy. No BT dropouts on the power meter either.

FWIW, I had also filed a ticket on the nav cues switch not being sticky over reboots. Support guys came back and said that it's on the list and should be corrected very soon. That's also good news.

Making progress, I think. Now if they get drivetrain info in, the display formatting fixed, and the graphical fields added (ride elevation profile, cadence slider, etc....), I'll be happy.

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drisotope
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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by drisotope » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:07 pm

Rides continue mostly uneventfully on 1.5.75. And I'm not complaining. Battery life is still absolutely all over the place-- it's fallen into a pattern of 12% +/-6% per hour. I've gotten two hours out of 13%, and I've seen 21% drain in a single hour. It makes no sense whatsoever. Big, long ride on Saturday, Karoo was on for over 6 hours, never switching the screen off, and used 61%. Excellent, right? Yesterday, 21% in 80 minutes. BIZARRE. Anyhoo. I forgot to charge Saturday night, so Sunday I decided to see the battery life in reverse-- how long it takes to charge while in use. Elapsed time was 2h9m, Karoo battery went from 31% to 100%-- might as well call it 0.5% per minute. This was using a 10,000mAh Anker USB pack. As my drain lately has been falling (most often) around 12% per hour (1% every 5 minutes) we can simple math: 12% drain per hour with a net 30% charge per hour should be ~42% charge per hour, so the battery is putting in ~1.4A charge rate, which falls right in line with what I've seen using a USB V/A monitor on my big charging station.

Does this matter? I think so-- the charge rate is 1.4A and my average draw rate is 0.4A, so my 10,000mAh pack + fully charged Karoo should get me something like 33 hours (minimum) of screen-on time under "normal" conditions. This means I can totally carry a smaller battery, because I'm not riding anywhere for 33 straight hours.

So here's the results from the ride in which the charge test took place, mostly ordinary.

Edge 520 / Karoo

Moving Time
2.06.29 / 2.07.45
Distance
30.20 miles / 30.65 miles
Avg. Speed
14.3mph / 14.4mph
Elapsed Time
2.09.15 / 2.09.11
Elevation
673ft / 612ft* (Strava corrected to 747ft, my wife's elevation was 722ft from her Edge 500)
Weighted Avg. Pwr
139W / 138W
Total Work
830kJ / 836kJ
Avg. Cadence
71rpm / 72rpm

Karoo auto-pause still being its usual self, not unexpected. Edge still under-reporting distance, as it always has and presumably always will. Karoo elevation worse with each 1.5 update. most rides are short ~12% relative to my wife's Edge, and can be 15% or more relative to Strava correction. My quick ride yesterday morning was 15 laps of a set course, where I know the exact elevation differential between highest and lowest points: 40 feet. So 15 x 40 = 600ft, which should be the absolute minimum stated ascent. The Edge came in with 515ft. The Karoo didn't break 500. There's that -12% again. And I would watch the altimeter on each lap-- the low point was within 5ft of 1,240ft, and the high point within 5ft of 1,280ft, every single lap. So the altimeter is still spot-on, bullseye accurate. The computed ascent is WAYYYYY over-smoothed.

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by drisotope » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:20 am

The Karoo continues to evolve it's personality. I've now seen 21% in an hour, followed up an hour later by 7%. Like... how? But, and it is a huge but, the battery issue is 90% of my complaint with the Karoo. It doesn't drop sensors. Even when it under-reports elevation, it does so with exceptional consistency-- I do these 1.4 mile neighborhood laps with 40 feet of elevation change, and the altimeter is spot on. Just that smoothing. Over in the FB group, I read more complaints than anything-- but my complaints are limited to:

--bizarre battery life
--narcoleptic auto-pause
--awfully over-smoothed ascent numbers

That's it. TBT works, breadcrumb trail works, pin-drop route creation works, never any issue with the SIM. Of course, I have a wishlist just like anyone else: configurable data screens that would allow us to make real use of all that real estate would be awesome, changeable colors/themes would also be welcome, but they're not required. Fix the functions, get the computer stable, then move on to the bells and whistles.

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by Scummer » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:10 am

Battery usage is fairly constant on my Karoo... Between 9-12%. Depending if I use TBT or not.
During my Saturday ride I was over 6 hours in the saddle and the Karoo came home with 26% left in the tank.

The only problem I'm currently having is the cadence. It suddenly starts to record the cadence and then it drops out and then it records again for a an hour or two then it drops out again. It's really odd, as the cadence never drops out on the display. The cadence mostly comes back during the ride when the road turns upwards.... :roll:

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by JohnJ80 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:45 pm

Scummer wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:10 am
Battery usage is fairly constant on my Karoo... Between 9-12%. Depending if I use TBT or not.
During my Saturday ride I was over 6 hours in the saddle and the Karoo came home with 26% left in the tank.

The only problem I'm currently having is the cadence. It suddenly starts to record the cadence and then it drops out and then it records again for a an hour or two then it drops out again. It's really odd, as the cadence never drops out on the display. The cadence mostly comes back during the ride when the road turns upwards.... :roll:
I'm having the same problem with my power meter (which also supplies cadence since mine is a Stages crank based PM). Back a couple of revisions ago, I was getting about 50% of the power reported (was 50% low). HH told me to switch over to a bluetooth connection for the PM. I did so and the power numbers came back into reality. However, after the last revision, I would get instances where the bluetooth connection would drop and I'd have to switch off BT on the Karoo and then turn it back on for it to reconnect.

I submitted the files and the problem to HH tech support and they came back and told me to (now) switch over to ANT+ for the power meter. I did that but anytime I coasted for more than about 5-10 seconds, the power and cadence would drop out. When I start pedaling again it takes about 20 seconds or so for the connection to be restored. So I submitted that issue to HH tech support again along with the FIT files. They want to see more.

From this, I infer that they have some issues with persistence in bluetooth links and with maintaining ANT+ connectivity that they have not resolved. It's getting better, but as they tinker with it, they sort of oscillate around the solution it seems.

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by Steve » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:48 pm

JohnJ80 wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:45 pm
It's getting better, but as they tinker with it, they sort of oscillate around the solution it seems.
That seems to apply to just about everything they try and fix/improve, e.g. TBT. It's almost like they don't understand their own code. I suspect that much of the code was written by contractors and/or people who aren't available any more. That would explain why they seem to often be in the dark as to why something is behaving in a particular way. At least, I hope that's the explanation, because if they do still have the developers there and they're having this sort of trouble, then ... well ...

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by JohnJ80 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:53 pm

Steve wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:48 pm
JohnJ80 wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:45 pm
It's getting better, but as they tinker with it, they sort of oscillate around the solution it seems.
That seems to apply to just about everything they try and fix/improve, e.g. TBT. It's almost like they don't understand their own code. I suspect that much of the code was written by contractors and/or people who aren't available any more. That would explain why they seem to often be in the dark as to why something is behaving in a particular way. At least, I hope that's the explanation, because if they do still have the developers there and they're having this sort of trouble, then ... well ...
Agree. Also, I'm sure they are bringing on more devs mid stream. That can't be helping things either. Probably not a fun place to be working at right now.

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by Scummer » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:14 pm

JohnJ80 wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:45 pm
I'm having the same problem with my power meter (which also supplies cadence since mine is a Stages crank based PM). Back a couple of revisions ago, I was getting about 50% of the power reported (was 50% low). HH told me to switch over to a bluetooth connection for the PM. I did so and the power numbers came back into reality. However, after the last revision, I would get instances where the bluetooth connection would drop and I'd have to switch off BT on the Karoo and then turn it back on for it to reconnect.

I submitted the files and the problem to HH tech support and they came back and told me to (now) switch over to ANT+ for the power meter. I did that but anytime I coasted for more than about 5-10 seconds, the power and cadence would drop out. When I start pedaling again it takes about 20 seconds or so for the connection to be restored. So I submitted that issue to HH tech support again along with the FIT files. They want to see more.

From this, I infer that they have some issues with persistence in bluetooth links and with maintaining ANT+ connectivity that they have not resolved. It's getting better, but as they tinker with it, they sort of oscillate around the solution it seems.
The funny thing is, I have a C1 PowerTap connected through BT and the power is being recorded properly the whole ride. For Speed and Cadence I have a Duotrap ANT+ sensor on my Trek. Now I wonder if it can't handle the two cadence streams from the PT C1 and the Duotrap. Even though on my display no cadence dropout is being shown, the fit file tells a whole different story. It's really odd. I think I need to submit my ride files to HH as well to see what they have to say.

The 'Trittfrequenz' is Cadence and it shows the dropout for more than 50% of the ride, while Power (Leistung) Heartbeat(Herzfrequenz) etc is all recorded properly.
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JohnJ80
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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by JohnJ80 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:44 pm

Scummer wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:14 pm

The funny thing is, I have a C1 PowerTap connected through BT and the power is being recorded properly the whole ride. For Speed and Cadence I have a Duotrap ANT+ sensor on my Trek. Now I wonder if it can't handle the two cadence streams from the PT C1 and the Duotrap. Even though on my display no cadence dropout is being shown, the fit file tells a whole different story. It's really odd. I think I need to submit my ride files to HH as well to see what they have to say.

The 'Trittfrequenz' is Cadence and it shows the dropout for more than 50% of the ride, while Power (Leistung) Heartbeat(Herzfrequenz) etc is all recorded properly.
The problem as they described it at the time when I was getting 50% of the power number for the ride was that they were missing a significant number of ANT+ packets. It also had something to do with Stages as well. I did two things - first I went and checked the firmware revision on the Stages power meter. That needed to be updated even though it wasn't far out of date. I also switched to BTLE interface for the power meter. When I did that, the BTLE number was more accurate than it had been before the update. So that had something to do with accuracy as well. BTLE had been about 15-20% low on average power, ANT+ was at 50% (way off). After the update and with switching to BTLE, it was then dead nuts on with my other computers.

Then after the last update, running paired with BTLE then I started to see a loss of connection where the Karoo would just drop the connection and not pick it back up. Typically this was after about an hour of riding or so. The fix was to toggle BT in the Karoo on/off/on and then it would be fine again. Filing that as a bug report with them was where the suggestion to switch to ANT+ came from. When I did that, it's dropping out more frequently but it is re-connecting on it's own. I don't think (but don't know) that it is missing much in terms of average power because I switched back to BTLE since the blank displays were disconcerting and annoying.

I don't know how PowerTap does it, but I'd for sure check firmware revs and make sure that is up to date. I found it concerning that HH didn't recommend this as it had a significant impact on the performance. Stages is a pretty popular power meter so focussing on getting that right would seem to be pretty important. At any rate, firmware revs in the medium term seemed to have a big impact. That may be due to Stages working with HH on understanding the problem. Everybody learns something in those conversations.

The other thing is to make sure the battery is topped off and that you aren't in some sort of marginal battery region. I think that could have an impact on signal strength although that is pure conjecture on my part.

So what I got out of the whole dialog with HH was that they were dropping ANT+ packets. Apparently ANT+ just broadcasts out and there really isn't any acknowledgement back to the sensor that it was received. So you could have a stream of data and be missing packets and not really know or have any real data integrity checks on the stream.

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1.5.105: 2 steps... sideways?

Post by drisotope » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:38 pm

Updated first thing this morning, and out for a typical ride. How'd the <HH> folks do this time around?

Edge 520 / Karoo

Moving Time
1.50.09 / 1.49.30
Distance
34.50 miles / 34.31 miles
Avg. Speed
18.8mph / 18.8mph
Elapsed Time
2.54.57 / 2.11.31
Elevation
1,076ft / 971ft* (Strava corrected to 1,174)
Weighted Avg. Pwr
221W / 207W
Total Work
1,264kJ / 1,225kJ
Avg. Cadence
80rpm / 81rpm

I dunno what they did. At one point, the Karoo was about 0.4 miles behind the Garmin, then caught up to break even, then fell behind again. HOW IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE!?! They're hooked up to the same sensor! And 14W lower average power? Even taking the raw power numbers, the Garmin had 191W, the Karoo 186W. I've no idea how the auto-pause fared, because the Karoo covered less distance, with less climbing, with less power, in less time. Elevation is worse than ever. As bad as it has ever been, almost. The 39kJ discrepancy works out to about 1 mile of unrecorded data, by my guess.

The battery went from 91% to 69% in what I'm calling 3 hours elapsed time-- that's pretty good. I still don't understand how the Karoo goes into "full suspend" paused with the screen off, meaning even the clock apparently stops-- note the 43 minutes differential between Elapsed Times. I always view battery life by total unit on-time, as my Karoo has the habit of using ~5% per hour when paused in-ride. The thermometer seems to work... okay. The Garmin had an average of 73ºF and a high of 85º, the Karoo 79º/90º. But when I got home, the weather station on the house read 90º, so perhaps the Karoo is closer. Gonna take more rides to tell.

So it doesn't seem like they outright broke anything-- which is excellent-- but so far as I can tell, nothing is really fixed either.

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Re: 1.5.105: 2 steps... sideways?

Post by dthempel » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:21 pm

drisotope wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:38 pm
So it doesn't seem like they outright broke anything-- which is excellent-- but so far as I can tell, nothing is really fixed either.
This is frustrating to me, since they had 3 weeks. If they didn't really "fix" anything and didn't really add anything (sorry, but I don't count temperature), what really got accomplished over that three weeks?

The notification bar updates are actually OK>good. I turn off location, sensors and wifi when I sleep the unit... usually. Tapping it on just now shows a big red notification bar indicating GPS is off, so that's a good reminder. (If only they could remind me to reset my elevation.)

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by Scummer » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:10 pm

Short ride around the block today. Covered a bit over 30 miles on my ride.
And what can I see.. the cadence is working since the last update pretty much 98% of the time. That's a huge step forward compared to the hour long dropouts on other rides.
Temperature seems to work.
Also my TbT instructions did work on Friday on my commute to work from a standstill with auto pause on. That has not worked before the update.
So far it's a step in the right direction from my perspective.

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by drisotope » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:02 pm

Auto-pause is working better than ever, the temp seems... pretty good, I've had nothing in the way of sensor drop-outs, but the battery life... so, so bad. My ride on Monday used 64% of the battery in 4 hours. That's the worst battery life I've gotten, and this time I didn't even have adaptive brightness on. Battery life had been good enough lately that I took the backup battery off the bike for everyday rides. Well, this morning will be a short one, so I think I'm gonna turn adaptive back on, see how it's working now.

Ooh, and now that I think of it, the page set for this bike doesn't have temp on it... I'll see if that makes any difference.

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by dthempel » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:59 pm

drisotope wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:02 pm
Ooh, and now that I think of it, the page set for this bike doesn't have temp on it... I'll see if that makes any difference.
You would hope that updating the temperature once in a while wouldn't cause that much drain. That's not been my experience. I have temp on my map and I had the map screen active for most of a 3hr+ ride the other day as I was both watching the red line and "reviewing" turn-by-turn. I didn't care so much about the data fields for this particular ride. I'm sure I had over 60% battery left from a full charge. Probably in excess of 70%, so that's in line with the "normal" ~10%/hr that I've typically gotten all along.

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by drisotope » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:54 pm

Well, yesterday was 28% battery in 1h45m, so it seems to be getting even worse. It's 14-16% per hour with adaptive brightness off. Maybe I bumped the slider on the pull down and I'm at like 100% brightness? I genuinely only just thought of that right now. I need to go through all my settings, I think.

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TEST JOURNAL: SUSPENDED

Post by drisotope » Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:06 pm

That's it. I'm done. On June 29, the Karoo scarfed down 40% of the battery in one hour and died mid-ride. Today, it performed normally through the 25 mile ride, and when I hit save, it collapsed in on itself like a dying star. Now no pages will respond. I cannot log out of my account, I can't open half the pages in Settings. Activities is completely unresponsive.

I've submitted a ticket to Hammerhead-- with absolutely zero expectations-- and the Karoo is coming off the bike for the foreseeable future. I can't do anything but poke at the buttons, hoping something different will happen. It's basically bricked. I'm going to leave it on and wait for the battery to run dead, see if anything happens.

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by Steve » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:00 am

Sorry to hear that, but understandable.

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Re: My Karoo Test Journal

Post by nordog » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:39 am

What a shame drisotope, that is bad news.

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It's... alive?

Post by drisotope » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:22 pm

So I left it sitting until it powered off. Plugged it in, allowed it to reboot, and did a factory reset. It's strange what it remembers and what it forgets. Initially, it wouldn't download offline map sections, so I tried downloading one without resizing the little square-- that worked. So I have like a dozen, probably overlapping map sections. Had to of course re-pair all sensors and reset the wheel circumference.

Today is the first, when I try to get the Strava Fondo Challenge out of the way. The Karoo was pretty well behaved over the 64 miles. Nothing outstanding, though. Sucked down 62% of the battery, meaning it's still unlikely it would last for an imperial century. It gave me a hundred less feet of ascent and half a mile shorter than my wife, who rode right next to me the whole time.

The standout issue is the bizarre implementation of pause. If the screen is powered off, the unit is basically suspended. We rode to a restaurant 28 miles away, and I paused the Karoo and turned off the screen when we arrived. This apparently stops the clock completely-- and I mean the clock, not the ride timer. Because on Strava FlyBys, I apparently leave the restaurant 40 minutes before my wife. I end up getting home almost an hour ahead of her (stopped at the LBS to buy a tire) despite the fact that she actually got home before I did. It's just weird.

So it worked okay, but I'm not nearly as confident as I was with it just 4-5 days ago. <HH> was quick to respond to customer support, so that's pretty good.

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